A bi-monthly podcast where we share the stories of our Caregivers, patients and community.
A stiff back and aching leg can look like a simple lower spine problem until the real culprit hides higher up. We share Diane’s journey from conservative care to targeted injections and, finally, two precisely timed surgeries that unlocked lasting relief. Along the way, our interventional pain specialist and neurosurgeon walk through how they think, starting with imaging and exam, testing hypotheses with blocks and epidurals and only then decide whether surgery is the safest, most effective move.
What should a 30-acre, 537,000-square-foot hospital become after a century of care? We sit down with Centra’s Denise Woernle, urban planner Suzanne Schulz, and Lynchburg’s economic development director, Marjette Upshur, to map a community-first path for reimagining Virginia Baptist Hospital. The conversation unpacks adaptive reuse in plain terms: listen first, decide later. Together, we walk through the process from January listening sessions to February goal-setting to a March community charrette designed to build trust, reduce surprise and turn lived experience into actionable plans.
A stronger primary care relationship can be the difference between constant crisis and steady health. That’s the throughline of our conversation with Dr. Detwiler, the incoming Director of Osteopathic Medicine at the CMG Lynchburg Family Medicine Residency. Dr. Detwiler brings rural roots, 25 years of family practice and a clear mission, to train physicians who treat mind, body and spirit while delivering measurable results for communities that need care the most.
Healthcare has entered the digital chat, and Centra’s step into digital registration and online self-scheduling shows our dedication to patient care. We sit down with Jen Halikman, our Vice President of IT Applications, to share how digital registration is rolling out now and how online self-scheduling lands in 2026. The focus is simple: give you control of check-in from your phone, reduce wait times and free our teams to spend more time on care and less on clerical tasks.
What if the morning “I feel sick” isn’t a dodge but anxiety talking through the body? We invited two seasoned clinicians to unpack why elementary struggles often snowball in middle school, how neurological growth and puberty raise the stakes and what parents and educators can do to steady kids when the school day feels impossible. From the jump, we map the path from early reading gaps and executive function challenges to avoidance, nurse visits, and “I can’t go” battles then show how small, consistent supports flip the script.
The school day doesn’t start at the first bell, it starts the night before, inside group chats where one message can snowball into a full day of distraction. We sat down with counselors from Lynchburg City Schools to unpack what kids are carrying into class: anxiety amplified by social media, conflicts that live on through phones and the quiet ways embarrassment and fear shape learning. Together, we chart a realistic path through the noise with a focus on practical supports, not panic.
Most people are told to “try harder” while fighting a disease their biology is trying to keep. We sit down with bariatric surgeon Dr. Joshua Alley to cut through stigma and explain how modern metabolic care actually works: minimally invasive procedures, powerful new medications, and a full-circle support system that treats obesity as the chronic condition it is. The goal isn’t a number on a scale; it’s better health, more energy and more years with the people you love.
The headlines are loud, the mailers are confusing and the clock is ticking. We’re making one thing simple: Centra will leave the Humana Medicare Advantage network on January 1, 2026, and you can protect your care by choosing the right plan during open enrollment.
A frightening diagnosis can steal the air from a room. Nicole’s story gives it back. From the shock of hearing “breast cancer” to the rhythm of surgery, sixteen chemo infusions and now the daily focus of radiation, she lets us into the real work of getting through it: making plans, asking for help and finding bright spots inside the hard days. As a mother of two and a community leader, she talks candidly about fear, the weight of uncertainty and the simple rituals that brought her peace.
A tumor that seemed to “smile” back in a flashlight’s glare set Jamie Day on a year-long path that tested his body, rewired his priorities, and strengthened every bond that mattered. From the first uneasy swallow after a film festival to the bell that marked the end of treatment, we walk through the raw, funny, and fiercely grateful choices that kept him moving: asking for all the blankets, blasting Mongolian thrash during radiation, and letting two devoted service dogs turn sterile rooms into safe places.
A routine mammogram set off a chain of decisions Erin Hagen never expected to make at 40. What the radiology report called DCIS felt both urgent and confusing, and the days that followed were a blur of consults, terminology and timelines. We sit down with Erin and Dr. Christina Canzoneri from Centra’s plastic and reconstructive surgery team to unpack how you move from a diagnosis to a plan you can live with.
Misinformation surrounds vaping, despite its growing presence in our everyday lives. These sleek, rechargeable devices deliver not just fruit-flavored satisfaction but a potent cocktail of nicotine (sometimes exceeding levels found in cigarettes) and numerous carcinogenic chemicals.
The journey of motherhood brings countless decisions, with feeding choices among the most significant. Rebecca Rose, an Internationally Board Certified Lactation Consultant at Virginia Baptist Hospital, guides us through the complexities and joys of breastfeeding during this illuminating conversation for National Breastfeeding Awareness Month.
While surgical technology is not new to Centra, thanks to generous contribution from the Centra Foundation, the addition of our fifth DaVinci robot has opened doors for surgical care. Join us in the operating room with Jen Drudy, Vice President of Perioperative Services, for an exclusive look at our fifth DaVinci robot and hear how it is changing how healthcare is delivered in our community.
The transition from summer freedom to school structure affects every family differently. Whether you're celebrating the return to routine or mourning the end of family time, this critical period demands special attention to your child's physical, emotional, and social wellbeing.
"Your periods shouldn't be unbearably painful. Most women in their 50s will experience dryness. Muscle mass matters more than being thin." These are just some of the straightforward truths nurse midwife Claire McStacy shares in this comprehensive conversation about women's health through the decades.
Nurse Practitioner Cody Sliger reveals the hidden crisis in men's healthcare through both professional expertise and personal experience. Despite significant advances in medical science, men continue to suffer worse health outcomes than women, largely because they avoid seeking help until it's too late.
Carol Harvey's powerful journey from experienced nurse to breast cancer survivor offers a unique dual perspective that changes everything.
What happens when we focus on strengths instead of limitations? R'Kel Mosely takes us on an unforgettable journey through his experience with Project Search, a program that's transformed his outlook on life, work, and his own capabilities.
Mental health needs have consistently topped community health assessments in our health system's area for years, reaching critical levels that demand immediate attention. Ismael Gama, Vice President of Centra's Psychiatry and Behavioral Health Service Line, shares how Centra is responding with a strategy that creates multiple pathways to care.
Crystal Collette and Jennifer Watson Jamison share their journey to achieving Autism Commission on Quality accreditation for Centra's Applied Behavioral Analysis therapy program and explain how modern ABA helps children with autism through individualized, evidence-based approaches.
What wisdom would you choose to leave behind for your children if you suddenly weren't there to guide them? After losing his wife Johanna to breast cancer in August 2023, Daryl Calfee found himself confronting this profound question—leading him to write "Skip the Bull: Lessons from Your Dad After Your Mom Died."
Dr. Travis Engel, Chair of Pediatrics, brings his expertise and compassion to a thoughtful discussion on the current measles situation affecting parts of the United States. With just under 500 cases nationally—concentrated primarily in West Texas and eastern New Mexico—he offers a balanced perspective on what families need to know without creating unnecessary alarm.
When 26-year-old Cody Towler walked into an emergency room for an unrelated issue, he never expected to walk out with a stage four colorectal cancer diagnosis that would transform his life forever. Despite his prognosis, Cody radiates a remarkable resilience that defies medical expectations.
Join us as we explore how Centra is addressing critical healthcare shortages by engaging local students through innovative educational programs. Our guests share how local healthcare camps provide students with exposure to a multitude of career options in medicine.
Join us for a timely conversation during Heart Month, where clinical cardiac navigator MaryAnne Poling, cardiologist Dr. Parichart Junpaparp, and heart failure patient Ken Mueller offer invaluable insights and personal stories. Through an in-depth discussion, we cover the causes, symptoms, and diagnosis of heart failure, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing it from other conditions like COPD or anemia.
Unlock the secrets to proactive health management with the expertise of Dr. Cindy Hanawalt and Dr. Micki Hall from HealthWorks. This episode delves into the essential role of biometric screening in personal health management, dispelling myths and clarifying its purpose in identifying potential risk factors for various health conditions. We emphasize the importance of these screenings as proactive measures and discuss their historical context, access methods, and their potential downsides, advocating for informed health engagement.
Establishing a health baseline is critical for effective personal health management. By working closely with your primary care provider, you can tailor a plan that addresses your unique health needs and sets manageable goals for lifelong wellness.
Unlock the transformative power of mental health care with our insightful conversation featuring James Bryant, Vice President for Emergency Services at Centra. Together, we shed light on the pressing issue of mental health accessibility, and discover how Centra is pioneering a "no wrong door" approach to mental health support by collaborating with key partners in each of our health-system communities.
Together with James Bryant, Vice President for Emergency Services, we discuss the specialized capabilities of Centra Health's Emergency Departments. Learn when to go the ED and when to go to urgent care, what to expect when you go to both and how the triage process works. We also explore the role of urgent care centers as a vital bridge to emergency departments, highlighting their strengths and limitations compared to hospital resources. We offer practical health and wellness tips to prevent illness and reduce the need for emergency visits.
Grief is a journey many of us embark on, often without warning, and the holiday season can amplify these emotions unexpectedly. Join us as we engage with Ashley Butt and Brynn Davis, who help us unravel the complexities of grief. Together, we explore how grief is not limited to the loss of a loved one but can stem from the end of relationships or dashed dreams. We promise you'll walk away with a deeper understanding of how to recognize and name your grief, which is the first step toward healing. With practical strategies, we learn to navigate grief triggers that often surface during festive times, embracing the idea that creating new traditions can foster resilience and self-discovery.
Unlock the secrets to a inclusive holiday season for neurodiverse families with insights from Dr. Emily Bradshaw and Daniel Sullivan of Centra's Autism and Developmental Clinic. Together, we redefine the holiday experience by honoring each child's unique strengths and challenges, all while exploring the concept of neurodiversity as a spectrum of diverse brain functions. Expect to learn practical strategies for creating inclusive and comfortable environments, even if that means tweaking traditional plans to prioritize your child's well-being and comfort.
How can we bridge the healthcare cost gap and enhance community wellness with the resources we have? Join us for a captivating conversation with Allison Ebert, the Director of Development at the Centra Foundation, as we unravel the critical influence of local giving on community health.
Better understand depression with insights from Dr. Sibcy, a licensed clinical psychologist from Centra Piedmont Psychiatric Center. Discover how depression's isolating nature can trap individuals in a cycle of avoidance, and learn strategies to break free from this loop. We delve into the therapeutic approaches that have proven effective, such as cognitive and cognitive behavioral therapy, and discuss the role of medication in treating moderate to severe depression.
Lauren Brown, an emergency physician at Centra found herself in the most unexpected situation of becoming a patient herself. In this episode she shares her personal narrative of experiencing a stroke that forever altered her life. Through Lauren's story, we discuss the vital importance of stroke awareness and early intervention, and how she navigated the surreal reality of recognizing her own symptoms while drawing from her medical expertise. Her experience offers unparalleled insight into the unpredictable nature of strokes and the resilience needed for recovery.
In this episode, alongside Kelly Griffiths and Dr. Travis Engel, who are at the forefront of Centra's work in Advance Care Directives and Perinatal Loss and Palliative Care for newborns, we illuminate the importance of a holistic approach to this type of care. Their team, involving obstetricians, pediatricians, midwives, social workers, and spiritual care providers, ensure families facing perinatal loss receive culturally respectful and comprehensive support.
Can emotional intelligence transform your professional life, especially in the high-pressure world of healthcare? Robin Moore from Centra Human Resources joins host Cami Smith to explore this question and share her journey to becoming certified to teach emotional intelligence through TalentSmart.
Discover the hidden truths about sexually transmitted infections (STIs) that could save your health and the health of others. Join host Cami Smith as she reunites with Tiffany Little, head of patient education, and Lance Dorsley, head of infection prevention at Centra. They provide an eye-opening discussion on the silent yet prevalent nature of STIs like chlamydia and gonorrhea and delve into the disparities affecting minority groups.
Can proactive mental health care actually shorten hospital stays and enhance recovery? Join us as we unravel this intriguing question with Drew White, a dedicated psychiatric Nurse Practitioner at Centra's Psychiatry and Behavioral Health Services. We tackle the critical rise in mental health issues like anxiety, depression, and substance use since, spotlight the pioneering emPATH unit at Lynchburg General Hospital, designed for emergency psychiatric care and confront the urgent topic of suicide awareness and prevention.
Caregiving for aging parents can be an overwhelming journey filled with emotional, mental, and physical challenges. In this episode, we sit down with Miriam Dakin, the manager of pastoral care at Centra's ambulatory services, who sheds light on the intricacies of supporting caregivers.
It is important to be safe in and around the water, whether you are at the pool, the lake, the beach, or even a fountain or the bathtub. In this episode we sit down with Kerry Cofer, Senior Director of Healthy Living at the Jameson Family YMCA to talk about aquatic safety for you and the people you love.
Finding the right primary care provider is key to building a partnership to live your healthiest life. Dr. Tuladhar shares her approach to care that considers the mind, body and spirit of her patients, and addresses care from adolescent through end of life.
In this episode, we sit down with Lynchburg resident and new mom Erin Rupe to discuss her journey with a premature baby in the NICU at Virginia Baptist Hospital. We discuss Erin's pregnancy journey, her care through Centra Midwives at CMG Forest Women's Center, and Erin's feedback for supporting parents through difficult situations. We also explore valuable resources like the "MyPreemie" App from Gharam's Foundation, designed to support families through the prematurity and NICU experience. Listen now on all platforms.
Continue the conversation from our first Healthy over Skinny podcast!
In 1924, Centra Virginia Baptist Hospital opened its doors in Lynchburg, Virginia, becoming the state's first Baptist hospital. As the years passed, the hospital marked numerous milestones while expanding to serve the community's needs.
For years, cultural narratives have equated beauty and health with a thin, toned body, suggesting that being skinny is synonymous with being healthy. However, beauty, and even health, often go beyond appearances. In this episode, our guests share their diverse journeys toward health. Join us as we redefine what it means to be healthy, flipping the equation to show that true health is more than just being skinny.
For years if you had a neurological disease or episode, a neurosurgeon would drill into the skull to work directly in the brain to treat and or locate the occurrence. Neuro-interventional surgery is minimally invasive surgery for neurological diseases and occurrences that reduces recovery times as well as surgery length with incredible results.
Dr. Travis Engel, Chair of Pediatrics at Centra Health shares that, 'the first 24 hours of your baby's life begins 9 months before." There are expectations, preparations, anticipation and so much more that goes into the first 24 to 72 hours and Dr. Engel is here to explain it all.
Meet the Luth sisters! Dr. Janice Luth, Dr. Virginia Blanks and Dr. Kathryn Sparhawk all provided care as physicians at Centra Medical Group (CMG) - Village in Moneta over the past almost 50 years.
We prepare for emergencies the best we know how. Put in plans, purchase necessary first aid necessities, and even practice drills. So why would we not train in CPR and AED use in case of emergencies?
In this heart-touching interview, we sit down with Reuben Perez, a Spanish-speaking patient from Venezuela whose life took an unexpected turn due to a Dural Arteriovenous Fistula (DAVF). Despite consultations with doctors from around the globe, Reuben's physicians told him there was no relief for his condition. However, circumstances led him to America, and to Dr. Elakkad at Centra, where his journey towards healing began.
Local business owner and active community member, Danny Givens shares why he has chosen to invest his time at Centra Hospice as a death doula.
Education is power, and in the fight for awareness and prevention of sexual assault and human trafficking, it is the front line of defense.
We sit down with Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Emily Bradshaw to learn more about Autism Spectrum Disorder, specifically in young girls and women in this episode of & so much more.
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Meet Dr. Bikram Bal, Chief Medical Officer for Centra Medical Group and gastroenterologist, practicing at Centra for the past 12 years. He joins us to educate, bring awareness to, and share preventative options for colon cancer for Colorectal Cancer Awareness month.
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**Discretion advised due to minor language and the level of detail in which Mr. Tomlin shares his story.**
Join us as we sit down with Loraine Stegall, an emergency room nurse at Centra Lynchburg General Hospital, who unexpectedly suffered a heart attack last year.
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Listen in as we sit down with Dr. Michael O’Neill, a radiation oncologist and the Oncology Service Line Physician Leader who works at Centra’s Alan B. Pearson Regional Cancer Center. Dr. O’Neill shares invaluable insights on cancer prevention, emphasizing the importance of simple living, avoiding processed foods and being active.
In this episode of the & So Much More, our host, Cami Smith, sits down with Carter Broocks to learn more about the Community Health Needs Assessment that Centra administers every three years!
Join us for a compelling discussion on the latest episode of "& So Much More," as we delve into all things RSV with Dr. Travis Engel. RSV, short for Respiratory Syncytial Virus, is a common and potentially dangerous virus that affects infants and children.
In this episode of & So Much More, our host, Cami Smith, is joined by Dr. Audrey Graham, the Medical Director of Breast Imaging at Centra. Together, they shed light on the crucial topic of breast cancer awareness and the significance of breast health. Having worked at Centra for over 14 years, Dr. Graham has dedicated her medical career to work in breast imaging and being an advocate for women’s health.
In a world where healthcare can often feel impersonal and fragmented, this episode of & So Much More paints a vivid picture of how Centra is reshaping the narrative! Join Cami Smith and Dr. Giuliana Allega, a primary care provider and the Director of Ambulatory Care at Centra as they discuss what the care team approach is and why this model of care allows Centra to serve its patients better.
Join Lauren Campbell, a Talent Acquisition Consultant with 16 years of experience at Centra, and Cami Smith as they delve into what sets Centra apart from other healthcare organizations. Together, they discuss why Centra's unique culture instantly makes you feel like you're part of a family and explore the array of competitive benefits that make our organization an ideal destination for launching or advancing your healthcare career.
Plagued by a myriad of health challenges, including intense back pain, high blood pressure, and diabetes, Tina Tucker had grown frustrated with the providers who made her feel like just another statistic by not taking the time to listen to her concerns. But her journey took a remarkable turn when she began receiving care at Centra and had her first appointment with Dr. Hugh Gill at the CMG Neurosurgery Center.
They all wear white coats, but the letters that come after their names are different! Have you ever wondered about the different types of doctors who take care of you when you're in the hospital? 🤔🚑
In this episode, delve deep into the critical and often overlooked aspect of workplace safety in healthcare. Join us as we sit down with two esteemed guests who are no strangers to the field: Tiffany Lyttle, Patient Education and Nurse Wellness coordination, as well as ADT Director, and Wren Roberts, Senior Director of Support Services.
Did you know that nurse practitioners can work in primary care and specialty care? Did you know that Centra employs four different kinds of advanced practice providers across our system?
Centra recently launched a series of summer listening sessions with our DE&I Consultant, Tanya Blackmon. Join Cami, Tanya, and Kristin King, Centra’s VP of HR Talent, as they dive into an inspiring dialogue on fostering a culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion at Centra.
In this episode of & so much more we shine a light on Centra's involvement in the nationwide initiative, Stop The Bleed. Join our guests, Dr. William Weber, a seasoned surgeon and Centra's Trauma Medical Director, alongside Sarah Beth Dinwiddie, the Trauma Program Director, as they unravel the intricacies of traumatic injuries and the criticality of being prepared to aid those in need. With their wealth of expertise, they discuss the significance of swift response times and impart invaluable insights on how each of us can play a pivotal role in saving lives.
Join us for a story of generosity and hope as Cami Smith sits down with retired neurosurgeon, Dr. George Hurt, Centra Vice President of the Virginia Henderson Institute for Clinical Excellence, Dena Todd and Executive Director of Lynchburg Beacon of Hope, Laura Hamilton, to discuss the substantial donations that Dr. Hurt and his wife, Cinda, recently made to Centra and Beacon of Hope.
In this episode of and so much more, join president, and CEO, Amy Carrier as she takes you behind the scenes of Centra’s transformative projects. With her passionate and insightful discussion, Amy reveals the upcoming initiatives that promise to revolutionize, Centra’s facilities and enhance the well-being of the community and its surrounding areas from the state of the art healthcare advancements to innovative infrastructure improvements, each project is designed to elevate the standard of care, and create a lasting positive impact.
Have you heard of Bedford County’s best kept secret?
In our most recent episode of “& so much more,” we speak with Weston Smith who was diagnosed at the age of 5 as having autism spectrum disorder. In honor of Autism Acceptance Month, we interview Weston and find out what it was like to be diagnosed, the difficulties he has overcome and his current progress.
In this episode we speak with Shawne Farmer, the Executive Director at Interfaith Outreach Association (IOA). As an organization that serves populations in the city of Lynchburg as well as Amherst, Appomattox, Bedford and Campbell counties, IOA continues to make an impact on the well-being of our community.
Food serves as an equalizer because it applies to everyone and is one of the first places to start when pursuing a healthy lifestyle. This is why Centra’s partnership with Lynchburg Grows has been a tangible way for our healthcare system to work to fulfill its vision—specifically, being able to advance the health and quality of life for the communities we serve.
In the first ever episode of the "& so much more" podcast we talk with Gwenn Cheatwood, Director of Development for Girls on the Run Central Virginia and Blue Ridge. Girls on the run is an international organization that Centra Health partners with locally which equips young women with confidence, kindness and decision making through sport. Join us while we look at this unique program and it's important impact on our community.
In this episode of “& so much more,” we sit down with Kayia and her oncologist, Dr. Cecilia MacCallum to listen to a story that exemplifies unrelenting hope and a commitment to excellent care. From her Stage 4 Colon Cancer diagnosis to her on-going treatment at Centra’s Alan B. Pearson Regional Cancer Center, Kayia is an inspiration to each of us as she explains that we can all do hard things if we take them, “one half day at a time.”
In this episode of & so much more we speak with staff members of Meals on Wheels of Greater Lynchburg who share the important cause of the organization. Listen to learn who Meals on Wheels' is for, how it assist people in the community and how Centra has come alongside their programs as an important partner.
When Bobby and Amanda chose Bariatric surgery at Centra Health in 2019, it was a decision they made for their family. They wanted to set a healthy example for their four boys, and live every moment to the fullest with them. Now, four years later they share their journey on & so much more.
Centra Scripts has become "& So Much More"! One thing that we have learned over the years is that there is so much more to Centra than just practical tips for everyday life. There are conversations that have happened behind the camera that we want to bring in front of the camera. We want to tell the stories of our Caregivers, our community, our country and our world from the voices of our health system experts.
Cami Smith:
Cami Smith:
Cami Smith:
In this episode of Centra Scripts, we discuss the new emPATH unit being added to the Lynchburg General Hospital Emergency Department with Ismael Gama, VP of Behavioral Health Services and James Bryant, VP of Emergency Services. Join us to learn more about this new progressive strategy to address emergency behavioral health services.
How do we talk about monkeypox? With so much conflicting information online on the news and floating around social circles, we sat down with our very own Infection Prevention Corporate Director, Lentz Dorcely to talk it out.
When Lauren Wade's evening was not going as planned, little did she know it was aligning her path with an unexpected miracle. Her interaction with young expectant parents and a mom in labor was a divine appointment and they all left forever changed.
Welcome to Centra Scripts. Here, we talk about health, wellness, and practical tips for your everyday life. I'm your host, Cami Smith.
Welcome to Centra Scripts. Here we talk about health, wellness and practical tips for your everyday life. I'm your host Cami Smith.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have estimated that as many as 1.6 to 3.8 million concussions occur annually in the United States. As awareness regarding sports related concussions increases, a better education and more consistent preventive measures are vitally more important. Listen in as Krista Leake, Centra Clinical Rehab Coordinator and Physical Therapist shares about the signs, treatment and precautions to keep you and those you love safe!
In honor of Men's Health Month, we sat down with Robbie Price, NP-C to learn the importance of prioritizing your health as a man.
Project SEARCH's mission is to prepare young people with significant disabilities for success in competitive integrated employment. Listen in to learn how this program changes the lives of the students who participate through internships right here at Centra.
As the nationwide baby formula shortage impacts our community, we want to make resources available to you as a support.
Last year the national recognition for Autism Spectrum Disorder evolved into Autism Acceptance after years of focusing on Autism Awareness.
When Michelle Adams experienced a stroke last year she miraculously survived with no life-altering side effects thanks to Dr. John Gaughen and Centra Neurology.
To close Infertility Month we sat down with Diane Ludwig and Jen Douglas to talk about their experience with infertility first hand. Their stories are vastly different, but there is a deep connection they share. Listen in.
Cami welcomes Dr. Christopher Williams, Fertility Specialist and Medical Director of Virginia Fertility & IVF and Assistant Professor and OBGYN at University of Virginia Health, as well as Erin Baird, a Midwife at Centra Health.
Kate and new incoming host, Cami, welcome back Dr. Thomas Meyer for Heart Month to talk about heart healthy numbers and why it's important to know your numbers sooner than later.